Curse

tmakinen · Sep 02, 2008, 07:12 AM // 07:12

When it comes to AB builds I've often heard that "if it's not on PvXWiki it's almost certainly crap". The following build is not listed on PvXWiki (unless you count the very sketchy Searing Transport which in any case misses most of the important bits of this build) and it's definitely not crappy. I even dare to claim that it's a highly optimal elementalist build in terms of versatility.

[build name="Balanced Toolbox" prof=E/P fire=12+1+1 energy=8+1 water=5+1 command=9][Glyph of Immolation][Mind Blast][Steam][Slippery Ground][Searing Heat][Teinai's Heat]["Fall Back!"][Fire Attunement][/build]

Specific advantages are:

versatility - whatever the situation there are always ways to make yourself useful
robustness - getting any single skill disabled or enchantment stripped doesn't render the build useless
you also meet shield requirement

On its own, the ele can wipe and cap all other shrines except a double monk one. It has surprisingly good survivability if played correctly, especially once you learn to dodge arrows. However, it's greatest strength comes from synergy with any nearby allies. FB! is a simply amazing skill that you can use to help your own team, any other allied team as a split character or even an allied minion master and her minions. Every team should carry at least one copy of the skill.

Glyph of Immolation should always be preloaded before a fight. Besides that it gives some extra oomph to MBlast you can protect your monk (or indeed yourself) by immediately Steaming any physical that jumps in (and because of that it's superior to the Immolate-Steam combo that you may not be able to pull off in time). Furthermore, physicals don't expect to be interrupted by an E/P so a well timed KD is always worth the effort. If you run out of physicals to counter, it's fun to coordinate KDs with the main offensive character of your team as well.

Although the heats are primarily reserved for shrine capping judicious use during PvP fights may also be warranted as long as you don't lose both the attunement and MBlast. A surprisingly large percentage of players don't move their rear end when it gets hot, and in any case you can KD people who would.

I've been tuning the build for some time and at this point I can't think of any change that would make it more versatile than it already is. Many ele builds do some specific things better than it but I'm not aware of any that would be able to do so many things adequately, so I'd like to hear your feedback before submitting the build to PvXWiki.

Edit: I would love to bring a snare as well, but none of the options look too good. Deep Freeze is costly without GoLE and Freezing Gust a bit underpowered at 6 Water. Raising Water would drop Command below shield req unless you use a sub-max r7 PvE one. As to which skill would go out, dropping one of the heats would remove (or seriously cripple) the solo wiping ability and dropping the attunement would make energy management iffy on the long run since one would at the same time lessen the ability to regen energy and increase the need of energy. If a snare would be absolutely required, then the swap of Fire Attunement to Deep Freeze, with sparing use of DF and very careful energy management, might work. If one of the heats was swapped to GoLE as well the combination would have decent energy management again, at the expense of solo wipe capacity. That can be acceptable if the rest of the team can provide some additional AoE. Reordering for a logical progression, the alternative build would thus be

[build name="Balanced Toolbox 2" prof=E/P fire=12+1+1 energy=8+1 water=5+1 command=9][Glyph of Immolation][Mind Blast][Steam][Slippery Ground][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Deep Freeze][Teinai's Heat]["Fall Back!"][/build]

NB: heats and DF target location, not a foe and wouldn't trigger GoI in any case so there's nothing lost when you drive them with GoLE instead.

Mouse at Large · Sep 02, 2008, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Nice ideas. The only major flaw is the lack of self heal apart from Fall Back. If you are going in an organised group inc. a monk, then it's not a problem. If you like going with random PuGs, then some form of stronger self heal would be nice.

tmakinen · Sep 02, 2008, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

The only major flaw is the lack of self heal apart from Fall Back.

I'm a strong supporter of the school of thought that the best way to counter damage is to be somewhere else

If I'm with a team then my primary task is to protect the monk from enemy physicals and a self heal doesn't help me in that.

If I'm alone and being pursued by a KD/interrupt/daze capable enemy, then my best option is to put some distance between us and find an allied team or shrine for protection, and FB! helps in that. If the enemy catches me self heal won't help at all. Or if it's a ranger it's better to dodge the snare in the first place and flee, than to get snared and self heal DShotted.

About the only situation where a self heal might make a difference would be a 1-on-1 with another ele, and I can't imagine why I would ever end up in such a situation.

Just yesterday I defended a shrine for 4-5 minutes against two cappers until allies came in to wipe them. Tying down two of theirs against the one of me while the shrine was kept on our side was IMHO a very favorable exchange ratio. They had self healing ability, I didn't, but that didn't win the fight for them.

Mouse at Large · Sep 02, 2008, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Once again, I like your thought process and logic. I suppose it's all down to what works for you. Personally, I've also managed to tie up/kill shrine cappers whilst defending, but by going down a different route.

What it boils down to is finding a tactic that works best for your playstyle, then learning to adapt your playstyle and tactics as you gain experience of the maps and strategies. Eventually, you will probably work out a set of builds that work for you on particular maps.

However, it's still a bit of a rock/paper/scissors situation so as long as you are are having fun, go for it

Tyla · Sep 02, 2008, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

When it comes to AB builds I've often heard that "if it's not on PvXWiki it's almost certainly crap". The following build is not listed on PvXWiki (unless you count the very sketchy Searing Transport which in any case misses most of the important bits of this build) and it's definitely not crappy. I even dare to claim that it's a highly optimal elementalist build in terms of versatility.

Oh no, it's usually "If it's not original you're a noob".

Anyway, onto the topic at hand, I would rather take out Mind Blast and Glyph of Immolation, and put in Immolate. Reason? It saves you a skillslot, deals a little extra damage and still meets the condition of Steam while saving you an elite slot.

What I would do is change some skills around like this:

[master of magic][immolate] / [glyph of immolation][steam][slippery ground][chilling winds][freezing gust][glowing ice][no skill]

10+1+1 Energy Storage
11 Spear Mastery
9 Command / Motivation

tmakinen · Sep 02, 2008, 02:08 PM // 14:08

@Tyla:

The reason for why I phased out Immolate in favor of GoI was that you won't have time for the combo when you get a sin on your face. The build you suggest is a pretty ordinary water snare/blind one and doesn't have any kind of shrine busting capability.

Cyric The Liar · Sep 02, 2008, 04:40 PM // 16:40

The build looks very interesting and I will certainly give it a try.

I personally like Mind Blast for the ability to spam and the energy management it offers.

Bobby2 · Sep 02, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

[build name="Balanced Toolbox" prof=E/P fire=12+1+1 energy=8+1 water=5+1 command=9][Glyph of Immolation][Mind Blast][Steam][Slippery Ground][Searing Heat][Teinai's Heat]["Fall Back!"][Fire Attunement][/build]

Strong shrine clearing, good single-target shutdown + damage, some handy support in [[Fall Back].

I'll take it.

@ JonnieBoi: thx4tehlarfz

Mouse at Large · Sep 02, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Interesting discussion.....

For what it's worth, this is a build I run a fair amount. It has some utility, can do good shrine clearing and can survive a fair bit of physical and condition pressure. Don't claim it's "optimal", but it seems to work more times than not

[Fire Attunement][Mind Blast][Mark of Rodgort][Teinai's Heat][Searing Heat][Fire Storm][Healing Breeze][Glyph of Restoration]

[Fire Storm] can be dropped for [Flame Djinn's Haste] if you insist on a speed boost, however, I've found that arriving at a chokepoint or shrine a couple of seconds after the frontliners in AB is no bad thing. Generally it allows you the opportunity to unleash your nukes on a more concentrated target.

Once again, I'd emphasise that this is designed for PuG AB. If you have a Guild that puts together organised teams, then you may find better ways of setting up

Pace

Tyla · Sep 02, 2008, 06:48 PM // 18:48

^
To be honest, you could fuel Rodgort's Invocation still on Mind Blast bars. I suggest swapping out Mark of Rodgort, and replacing Fire Storm with Blinding Flash or Gale.

Mouse at Large · Sep 02, 2008, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Mark of Rodgort is a particular favourite of mine given the general lack of hex/condition removal in AB. There is something intensely satisfying (and effective) about keeping a target continually burning via MB and wanding............

........and I know it's probably not entirely the best tactic, but I do love to see melee characters, especially some types of warrior stand there, burning to death as they continue to hit me and I heal through the damage. I can almost hear the thought processes......."Squishy not go dead.....uuuuuuuurgh"

Riotgear · Sep 02, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Then you should know that your suggested monk build is fairly suboptimal. Holy Veil > Cure Hex, Spirit Bond > Prot Spirit (for the expected damage rate and range of AB) and Dash is a waste of skill slot when you already have Return. You should take Shield of Absorption instead.

The thing with AB is that focus-fire and coordination are almost nonexistent, and when it is, it's predictable. People aren't going to be getting slammed with large damage packets frequently enough that Spirit Bond becomes useful, though PS may offer decent damage stabilization over time. And that's what's really important: Stabilization. As long as you can have Word of Healing recharged every time someone's health drops below 50%, you can monk AB.

That said, why would you still be using Vapor Blade on a Shatterstone bar when there's Glyph Immo, Steam, and Glowing Ice?

Quote:

[sarcasm] lol.. yea.. i have no idea. my r12 kurz and r12 lux show i have no idea what so ever about AB... not to mention my r9 hero and 33 maxed titles show i have no idea at all what so ever about anything else, either.... yep yep yep. you're so right [/sarcasm]

Considering the faction titles are easily gained with minimal PvP prowess and HA rank is easily gained with IWAY/thumpway/S-way/Ritspike/whatever zero-skill flavor of the month there is, I can't say I'm impressed.

Quote:

1) fallback is complete and utter fail in AB. the recharge compared to duration is absolutely terrible

So you'll take 2 copies of Storm Djinn's, but Fall Back is bad because of the duration/recharge? You do realize 2 copies of Fall Back means having it up almost all the time, especially with Battle Cry shrines, right?

Quote:

it's for capping the ele shrine and those few rare occasions when there is a spike team

Meteor Shower makes the ele shrine trivial. Of course, the only thing you really need for the ele shrine is to not have someone who's brain-meltingly retarded try to tank them for a full cycle.

Bobby2 · Sep 02, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

........and I know it's probably not entirely the best tactic, but I do love to see melee characters, especially some types of warrior stand there, burning to death as they continue to hit me and I heal through the damage. I can almost hear the thought processes......."Squishy not go dead.....uuuuuuuurgh"

With Healing Breeze as your only heal, I kinda get which types of Warrior you mean

They have no right to expect a kill - ever

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Meteor Shower makes the ele shrine trivial. Of course, the only thing you really need for the ele shrine is to not have someone who's brain-meltingly retarded try to tank them for a full cycle.

[maelstrom] + brave melee > Ele shrine

Bless all Frosties packing it

Tyla · Sep 02, 2008, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Meteor Shower makes the ele shrine trivial. Of course, the only thing you really need for the ele shrine is to not have someone who's brain-meltingly retarded try to tank them for a full cycle.

That's why IA is awesome, it kills terribad groups and takes down shrines with ease!

But yeah, everytime someone tries to survive the Ele shrine by running in and killing it makes me QQ when they end up lying face down in a puddle of imaginary blood. Poor them.

Mouse at Large · Sep 02, 2008, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

With Healing Breeze as your only heal, I kinda get which types of Warrior you mean

They have no right to expect a kill - ever

*cough* [Healing Breeze] plus [Glyph of Restoration] *cough* I embraced my squishyness a loooong time ago

Keekles · Sep 02, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Pre-veil meant that in the time where every sin was running an sp build you could strip off sp while their lead in missed and you laughed at them.

Pre-veil means that shame/diversions targetting you take 6seconds to cast, and you can remove them in the middle of casting a spell.

Pre-veil means that most hexes can be removed before they can be covered.

note: I'm not a "real Ha and GvG monk" I just monk in gvgs sometimes.

Dual veil > single veil. *gasp*

Bobby2 · Sep 02, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzNChicken

(stop bringing the basic balanced builds out of GvG/HA/TA! They don't work as easily around AB.)

QFT...

Generally it's just a power/mobility trade off though - those balanced ('PvX', if you will, though not in a demeaning way) builds generally lack the versatility/speed to avoid being overwhelmed by, say, 6 additional enemies appearing out of nowhere

tmakinen · Sep 03, 2008, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

Can we get this back on topic?

Certainly. Considering the role of an elementalist in AB, some combination of the following external functions should be available (in no particular order):

damage
blind/blur/weakness
snare
knockdown
speed boost

Furthermore, any of the functions can be point or AoE type. Based on efficiency considerations the optimal solution may be point, AoE or a combination of both. Because these are just external functions (and in addition there are internal functions like energy management), there clearly isn't enough room for a separate skill for every function. Even worse, some functions are usually implemented through several skills. If we are to find a highly versatile build, bar compression through multi-purpose skills is an absolute requirement.

Let's see how the original build fares in this respect:

Damage: point and AoE
Blind: point
Snare: N/A
KD: point
Speed boost: AoE

Not bad, the only major thing that is missing is a snare. The alternative version, on the other hand, looks like this:

Damage: point and AoE
Blind: point
Snare: AoE
KD: point
Speed boost: AoE

The alternative is strictly more versatile, at the expense of giving away the ability to instawipe NPC mobs. This is a feasible option if there is some other source of AoE damage in the team and the map is not attacking deep.

Now, when you suggest another build, evaluate it with the above 'score card' to see which of the functions it implements.

Edit: there are also other functions that can be loaded on an elementalist. However, those are implemented with secondary profession skills and thus cannot be considered primary functions of an elementalist like the ones listed above, each of which can be implemented with elementalist skills (though AoE speed boost is only available through secondary).

Krill · Sep 03, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnieBoi05

...w/ SB, you will be getting hit for a guarenteed minimum amount of 6 times, thus, making you have 4 more uses with SB. what happens when another group falls back to try and counter youe cap and they have, well, let's say an ele? they get SB removed within just 4 hits and you find yourself having to spend 'another' 10 energy just ot try and negate them, right?

I can think of one or two times SB has ran out on me from the 10 hit clause in AB, that's the least of your concerns.

@ the OP

Pretty decent build, but steam activates a little too slow to be useful against telespikes (unless your glyph is already active), which is usually the biggest threat in AB. However, steam + slippery ground is really fun to run on a FC water mes.

tmakinen · Sep 03, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

steam activates a little too slow to be useful against telespikes (unless your glyph is already active)

That was the biggest concern with the Immolate+Steam combo and the reason I switched to GoI because I can preload it as soon as there's a threat of telespike and keep it up as long as necessary. That way Steam is on par with Flash in terms of reaction time.

AB players don't seem to bother with sophisticated feints, you can usually see well in advance who's going to get a sin on his face, so minimal amount of anticipation will be enough, especially after the aftercast nerf to most stepping skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

steam + slippery ground is really fun to run on a FC water mes

GoI+Steam+Extend Conditions+Slippery Ground is indeed major lulz when you hit a mob with it